See also Graphic: Interest in Changing Employers by Number of Work-Life Initiatives Offered by Employers as Reported by Supervised Attorneys and Additional Resources Related to Attorneys, Managers and Work/Life Balance.
An Interview with Jessica DeGroot
By Judi Casey and Karen Corday
Casey: Tell me about the ThirdPath Institute.
DeGroot: Our mission is to assist individuals, families and organizations in finding new ways to redesign work in order to create time for family, community and other life priorities.
Casey: It’s interesting that you mention communities along with families and work.
DeGroot: That’s the way our work has unfolded over the years. ThirdPath has placed a lot of attention on family, for very specific reasons, but we’ve always been clear that work-life is bigger than family. We want to help people create organizations in which everyone can think about work, family and community issues; there’s a lot of benefit when individuals and organizations think in this new way. The core of our thinking is that change is now possible because work can be done in a new way that supports people lives outside of work, while also meeting the needs of business. The organizing concept is to look first at work and ask “What is the real solution for my specific job?”
Casey: If more people were focused on the “real solution,” there would be a nucleus of people who could support each other.
DeGroot: Yes. ThirdPath has found that there is incredibly interplay between individual and organizational level change. When a person within an organization asks for a change, this intervention sets up all sorts of positive repercussions. But, organizations also need to change their assumptions around who’s rewarded and recognized. It’s a back-and-forth transaction where individuals take action and so do organizations.
Casey: Can you talk about the across-the-life-cycle time line that describes how at different points in their lives people may want to redesign work in different ways?
DeGroot: If you think about careers over time, they parallel what’s happening in people’s lives outside of work over time. In general you can segment people’s careers by life before children, life with children (during which there are many distinct phases), and then there’s life after children. Of course, people’s careers are now going beyond the age of sixty five. For most people, these distinct phases get organized around families. Not everybody—20% do not have children—but the majority of people do progress through these stages, and each stage brings unique challenges. When you’re first starting your career and trying to prove yourself, you also may be trying to meet friends, or someone with whom you’ll have a long term relationship. When you have a baby, there are unique challenges with trying to organize your life around your child’s needs. Another classic situation people feel strongly about is when a child becomes too old for school-aged care. Or, when parents suddenly realize, “My goodness, my kids are growing up so quickly. I want to be there for them before it’s too late.” For others, when the kids leave home they suddenly become workaholics, and once again they need to relearn how to create a more balanced life. One of the life phases that will be going through significant changes in the next few years is retirement. People in their sixties represent a group of employees with great information, talent and relationships that organizations are going to want to retain. If they exit the organization, it’s a real hardship for the business, so it’s becoming increasingly important for workplaces to explore retirement in a whole new way, including the idea of phasing into retirement.
Casey: Yes, businesses need to maintain and institutionalize organizational knowledge. That’s a priority issue for today’s employers.
DeGroot: My fantasy is to set up job shares between senior workers and more junior workers as a way to pass along the talent.
Casey: Yes, like a mentoring relationship. Recently, you have focused attention on leaders and work redesign. Why leaders at this point?
DeGroot: ThirdPath went after this challenge for one specific reason, but I think the outcome has been much better than what we expected. We looked at the profession of law and organized a conference that clearly demonstrated how lawyers can redesign their jobs. Over 85 people attended, 30% men, including a dozen lawyers who spoke about how they had worked four days a week, or telecommuted or worked less and telecommuted. The majority had become partners, so we had numerous success stories about how lawyers had figured out how to find the right fit while continuing to advance in their careers. However, what we also learned is that there are still too many law firms that expect lawyers to work all the time with no breaks in their careers in order to move ahead. Therefore, we decided to look at male and female law partners who had successfully redesigned their work, or who were at the top of their organizations but wished they had more balanced lives, and ask them how we could support them to gain more balance. By learning from people who had made it to the tops of their organization, we believed we could begin to create a new model for leadership that would also support a more balanced life. And by doing this, we knew that everyone would feel it was more possible to make similar choices.
Casey: Why did professionals worry that work redesign was not a possibility for them?
DeGroot: They felt they would be jeopardizing their careers. However, what we’ve learned is that by stepping out of the debate about part time lawyers, and instead focusing on leaders living more balanced lives, we began to uncover some of the opportunities and challenges of truly shifting the paradigm for everyone. For example, we learned that leaders can redesign their jobs, but they need unique skills to figure out how to have a more balanced life. People don’t just automatically have this skill set. So, our original goal was to prove that jobs at the top of an organization can be redesigned. Like many organizations, law firms have a “leaky pipeline” problem where people move up and then leave as senior workers because of work-family balance issues. This is a real hardship for organizations.
Casey: I can’t tell you how many lawyers, particularly women, who have left the law profession due to work-family balance problems. I’ve seen that many times over the years—more than any other profession I can think of!
DeGroot: Absolutely. However, what we learned in addition to the fact that leadership jobs can be redesigned, is that the lawyers who insisted on having more balanced lives, even with the risk that they might jeopardize their careers, are the ones who have developed these new “21st century” skills. So, one of the unexpected outcomes of the work we’re doing is finding that people who insist on living balanced lives are bringing an important skill set to our new 24/7 business environment. Early in their careers, they are learning they don’t want to work everywhere and all the time. Instead they are asking questions such as, “How can I prioritize my most important work and let go of tasks that aren’t so important? Can I delegate work and empower work teams to make sure that the most important work gets done?” Early in their careers they learned to think in this new way; and as they moved up in their organizations and became leaders, this mindset became even more important. One of the most important jobs of a leader is to decide what work can be handled by the firm and whether or not the firm has the resources to manage this work. These “integrated” leaders have had lots of experience, both at work and at home, planning and managing limited time and resources. Our work demonstrated that yes, leaders can live and model more balanced lives, but we also learned that when they do this, there’s a positive impact for the entire organization.
Casey: Could you talk specifically about this “21st century” skill set?
DeGroot: Once again, at the core of this skill set is this concept of work redesign that ThirdPath teaches everybody. Work redesign looks at changing your schedule (when you work), physical presence (where you work), work flow (how much work you do), and substitution (who does the work). These integrated leaders have been experimenting with these different areas of flexibility and figuring out adjustments in each of these areas. One of the leaders we’ve been working with is James, a consultant for a large consulting firm. After his first child was born, he and his wife, a pediatrician, decided that they both wanted to work, but they also wanted time for family. As a result, they both redesigned their jobs. He figured out how to work a compressed work week and have Fridays off to be with his two children. He’s also in charge of the kids on Saturday, as his wife sees patients on that day. The family is together on Sundays. Even though James doesn’t work on Fridays, he still follows a routine for managing e-mail and voice mail to stay on top of his work responsibilities. He also recognized that he could do some work in the evenings after the kids went to bed; in fact, he found that time particularly useful as quiet time to really focus on work. He is strategically accessible instead of assuming that he must be instantly accessible to everyone all the time.
Another leader I worked with described a technique in which he doesn’t give anyone his cell phone number, preferring to allow his secretary to differentiate between urgent calls and something that can wait or be handled by someone else. He does the same thing with voice mail and e-mail; instead of constantly checking for new messages, he checks it every two hours. These leaders use technology to improve their lives instead of letting technology run their lives.
Casey: This is so true. Technology can be such a double edged sword. It sounds like these leaders learned how to take advantage of the benefits without being caught up in the down sides.
DeGroot: Yes, but it’s bigger than technology, it’s really a whole new mind set. For example, another important concept around work redesign that applies specifically to leaders is the concept of using and creating effective teams. This is done by making changes around workflow and substitution; for James to have balance around his pace of work, he needed to have a good team in place. Then, on his day off, if there was a meeting, he could delegate someone else to attend the meeting. Most importantly, he made use of this practice not as a burden for his team; instead, he considered which junior member of the staff could benefit from going to the meeting and speaking in front of this particular group of people.
Furthermore, integrated leaders insist on not constantly working over capacity. This gives them the space to think about what’s really important as opposed to running from one urgent task to the next in a constant state of stress. This doesn’t mean they never work over capacity, but they aren’t constantly in this state. We’ve come to see the goal as seasons of imbalance as opposed to chronic imbalance. It’s impossible to control everything, and problems do arise. But ideally, there are other times when you have some breathing room during which you can tend to important tasks that were temporarily put on hold. We call this the “broken hose problem.” Too often people are too busy to fix the leaky hose; instead, they just bring in more people to mop the floor. If a leader has a little more breathing room, they have time to say “Let’s fix the hose. Let’s get this resolved once and for all so we can all stop mopping the floor.”
Clearly, leaders who are living integrated lives are modeling a new way of living. Just the sheer act of them modeling balanced choices makes a big change for everybody. Both workers and organizations are struggling with employees leaving because of work-family issues. If you have a leader at the top of an organization who has taken the time throughout their career to also engage in their life outside of work, this signals change is possible for others. It also suggests a strategy to fix the talent management pipeline problem so many organizations are experiencing. These leaders are pioneers; they’re really learning new ways to be successful at home and work. It’s hard to be a pioneer, but once someone’s taken these risks, we can learn how to redesign work more easily and pass that knowledge on to the next generation.
Casey: How do these new behaviors gel to create organizational change?
DeGroot: There are two things we’ve seen that have really stood out. In January ThirdPath had a meeting and brought together the leaders we’ve worked with over the past year and a half. It became clear that there were significant differences between the experiences of small law firms and larger law firms. In some ways the large firms were jealous of the small firms because they looked to be farther along the learning curve. They even worried that lawyers would figure this out and come out of law school and work for a large firm, only to leave for a smaller firm when they have kids, taking their valuable experience with them.
Casey: Don’t you think it’s easier to drive change in smaller organizations because of sheer numbers?
DeGroot: Well, think about a twenty person law firm. If the leader of the firm insists on having a balanced life, the impact of that change spreads more rapidly and can influence the whole system more quickly. So, that interplay between one person having clarity and shifting the whole system can be much faster. There’s a real opportunity to help not only small law firms but other small organizations. Almost 80% of all American organizations have fifty or less employees. If you think about what that means, as far as promoting change, that’s really exciting! So yes, absolutely there’s a difference between small firms and large firms in terms of making organizational change, but I have a really exciting story on the large organization front.
One of the leaders, James, of whom I spoke earlier, has learned that he can only go so far to have a balanced life within his organization. He’s done a great job, but it’s still very taxing; he still doesn’t get enough sleep and feels stretched thin. To make more change happen, he has realized that he needs to get more people within his organization involved. As a result, he’s organized ten other leaders at his consulting firm who are all excited to learn from his efforts. ThirdPath is hoping to set up a pioneering leaders’ group within his organization. They can then figure out what’s in their control to change as individuals, and by talking amongst themselves they can also learn what needs to be addressed at an organizational level.
Casey: It sounds as if there could be a potentiating effect. One leader in a twenty person company can have some effect, but the effect of ten leaders in a bigger company is multiplied.
DeGroot: You’ve got it! It’s pretty exciting!
Casey: Are there any other activities or events that you think our readers should know about?
DeGroot: Sometimes ThirdPath can get pigeon-holed as too focused on family or too focused on professionals. One reason we have focused on family has been underscored in the work we have been doing around leadership. Currently men get stuck in the system, just like women. And, if we truly want to change the equation for everyone, we have to have both men and women rethink their roles at work and at home. If anyone wants to learn more about this, I can send them some information ThirdPath has been gathering around the career-family Catch-22. It clearly illustrates why lasting change will only be achieved by addressing changes both at work and at home.
However, as a non-profit, ThirdPath’s goal has always been to consider work-family issues across the economic spectrum. With this in mind, we’ve just launched a project to focus more on hourly wage workers. Once again, we are focusing on success stories and what we can learn from hourly wage workers who have figured out how to work and have time for their lives outside of work. We’ve started collecting stories, and we are excited about what we’ve been learning. For example, in one family, after the baby was born, the father (who is a flight dispatcher at an airport) the aunt (who does data entry) and the grandmother (who is a salesclerk) all changed over to four day work weeks. The mother (who works at a bank) did not have this option available to her, but because the extended family was involved, they were able to arrange things so that they only needed part time child care. At ThirdPath, we believe that paid work represents something important in our lives, but we also all find joy and meaning in having real and significant time for our families and communities. That’s not something that just professionals want; everyone wants it.
We also want to use this information to start building a public policy agenda that would mean real change for everybody. We believe there’s a new way of doing things where everyone can work while also creating significant time for their lives outside of work.
Casey: So what is the takeaway for a public policy person?
DeGroot: For one, ensuring that there are high quality preschools and public schools would be a huge change. Furthermore, if you can create health benefits that are not connected to jobs or that don’t disappear when you work part time, that would also have a huge impact. Another example is welfare reform. In the 1950’s we said “Children need parents. Let’s figure out a way to pay a parent to be home with her child.” Then, in the 1990’s we said “No, it’s better if the parent works full time. That’s the answer.” Think about how much better things would have been if someone could have thought about an integrated approach, allowing parents to work and stay involved in the care of their children.
Casey: What about a takeaway for workplace practitioners?
DeGroot: Practitioners often get inspired by the stories ThirdPath shares with them, but then get discouraged they have a hard time translating what we have learned into action. They need to know that organizational change is a huge task and it is significant to just figure out the first small steps, such as finding pioneers within the organization and aligning with them. Once you find these pioneers, nine out of ten are motivated to help make more change happen. Find these potential change agents and help them make connections with others. Listen to their stories and learn from them. Build a group of people who have already made changes in order to balance their lives. Get the word out through newsletters and other venues. Their stories, their ideas and their energy will create the momentum for wider change.
Casey: Have you received any push-back from people who say that this is purely an upper and middle class issue and doesn’t apply to working class families?
DeGroot: No, it is clear there is a lot of energy around our hourly wage workers project. We recently met with over eighty childcare workers at the annual conference of the Delaware Valley Association for the Education of Young Children. We thought this group would be a great resource for gathering stories from working class and working poor families who have developed a community of adults to share in the task of childcare. We had an amazing response; sixty-six of the participants signed up to be part of the on-going conversations we will be having in the months to come.
Of course, it’s important to consider the full spectrum of families: professional families, working class families and working poor families. For families with especially limited resources, public policy is particularly needed to support their needs.
Casey: Is there anything else you’d like to add?
DeGroot: I’d like everyone who’s interested in work-life to know that ThirdPath welcomes your involvement—we’d love to hear from researchers, practitioners and policy makers. Please do not hesitate to contact me if you’d like to get involved! Together we can change the world.
Visit the ThirdPath Institute's web site at http://www.thirdpath.org.
To contact Jessica, please e-mail jdegroot@thirdpath.org.
See also Graphic: Interest in Changing Employers by Number of Work-Life Initiatives Offered by Employers as Reported by Supervised Attorneys and Additional Resources Related to Attorneys, Managers and Work-Life Balance .
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